Ryan Nicodemus Unpacks Minimalism
If you’ve had conflicting thoughts about minimalism, you’re not alone. One of the core values here at Box of Crayons is elegance — finding the simplest, cleanest form of something. But I also love art and gifts; I’m not somebody who’s about to strip down their life to a few key objects.
So I’m excited to gain new insight into minimalism from one of the great minimalists, Ryan Nicodemus. He’s the author of several books and co-producer of a really interesting recent documentary called Minimalism: A Documentary about the Important Things. So sit back and enjoy our conversation. You just may discover a path toward a life with more meaning — but less stuff.
In this interview, we discuss:
- The connection between minimalism and happiness.
- What it means to live deliberately.
- Why it pays to be mindful of available resources.
- How to stop talking about priorities and start acting on them.
- The importance of learning to say no.
Or bookmark it here to listen to later.
Michael: So, minimalism. You’ve probably heard about it. I’ve heard about it, and I come with a degree of suspicion, You know, when I see the blogs or see whatever. A lot of these people professing a minimalist life tend to be these kind of slightly gaunt white dudes. All of whom are kind of carrying those small man bags plus a few black T-shirts, and that’s about it.
And so I had these conflicted thoughts about minimalism. On the one hand, you know, one of the core values of Box of Crayons is elegance and what is elegance but a way of finding the simplest, cleanest form of something, something that has a beauty to it, by stripping away the stuff that is excessive, that is extra.
On the other hand, I love some of the objects in our—where I live. Some of the art, some of the gifts that people have given me, some of the shirts that I have, my socks. I love my socks. I love a couple of shoes I’ve got. I mean, I’m not somebody who’s willing to strip my life down to 14 key objects. So I was pretty excited to be able to have a conversation with Ryan Nicodemus. Now Ryan is one of the minimalists. He has a partner, Joshua. And as well as putting out books over the last two or three years, they have just produced, or within the last year, a really interesting documentary called Minimalism: A Documentary about the Important Things.
And I had a chance to watch that. Enjoyed it. And I know, at least, because there were people there who I know and admire such as Sam Harris, a great philosopher, and Leo Babauta, who some of you may know through the interviews Leo and I have done on the Great Work Podcast. And so with Ryan I wasn’t interested in “How many T-shirts do you have?” I was interested in “How do you get clear on what are the choices you make? How do you get clear on the foundation that allows you to strip back what’s excessive to a good life and allows you to focus on the stuff that really matters?” So, do sit back. Enjoy this conversation with Ryan Nicodemus, one of the minimalists, one of the people in the documentary The Minimalist. And get a new insight into kind of what might be a path forward for a life that has more meaning but less stuff.
So, Ryan, in the documentary and, you know, we were just chatting before we recorded this, and it’s amazing your documentary is the number one independent movie in the U.S. at the moment, is amazing. But in this great documentary, Sam Harris, who’s a writer and a philosopher, whose work I really like, you’re interviewing him and he says, “You know what? I think we’re confused about what will make us happy.” And it’s a very profound comment. It kind of echoes, probably, beyond the work you do, but it also reflects very heavily on the work you do and the work you champion, which is this way of seeing the world as a minimalist. So, let me start by asking—I’m going to ask you two questions at once, which is terrible interviewer protocol, but I’m going to do it. I’m going to say first of all, for those that aren’t sure what you’re talking about, give us the minimalist definition of minimalism, so you got some ground rules. And secondly, make a connection for me and for the people listening about what’s the connection between minimalism and perhaps a pathway towards happiness?
Ryan: Well, the definition of minimalism, I would say that, you know, minimalism, it’s this thing that helps us get past the things in our lives.
Michael: I like it.
Ryan: Yeah. It helps us to make room for life’s most important things, which—well, it turns out, aren’t things at all. You know, if I was to give one minimal answer, I would say minimalism is living deliberately. It’s making sure that, you know, we are using our resources that suits us the best. And, you know, I’m not propagating a solipsistic approach to life, but what I am saying, to speak to your point that Sam Harris brought up in the documentary, you know, we are steeped in a culture of consumerism, and we see about—it’s thousands, tens of thousands of ads every single day. It’s more than a million a year, believe it or not. Whether it’s turning on the TV, whether it is driving down the road looking at billboards or you’re on Facebook and you see advertisements. We are steeped in this society of consumerism. And we are told that if we buy this car or if we go on this vacation that we’re going to be happy.
And I’m not saying that, you know, things can’t make us happy per se, but I think we put too much weight on the things we bring into our lives. So minimalism is really a tool that helps us to, like I said, live deliberately. It helps me to really, I guess, question the way that I use resources. And, you know, money is something that is certainly a resource that we all tend to—if we don’t revolve our lives around it, we try to not revolve our lives around it. But we have many more resources than money: we have time, we have attention. So it really helps me to use all of those resources in a(?) deliberate way that helps me to not just be happy but more so, to live a meaningful life and to be able to contribute beyond myself in a meaningful way.
Michael: [Wow! There’s a lot tied into that. You know, it’s not just about stuff; it’s about all of the resources. We have time, attentions, emotions, perhaps, and it’s about, what I’m hearing—correct me if I’m wrong—it’s not about just not having stuff. It’s about making sure that you know why you have the stuff that you have.
Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, one of my biggest influencers, Leo Babauta. He has a website called zenhabits.net. He’s out in San Francisco and he has a wife and six kids. So, you know, the things that he has in his life, well, it’s going to look different from what me and my partner, Mariah, with no kids, what we have in our lives. And yeah, you’re right, minimalism is not just about having nothing. I promise you and anyone listening to this, you know, you could go rent a Dumpster and throw away everything you own and go back to an empty house or apartment and sulk, be very miserable.
It’s really about—I think for me it’s about just helping me to keep the balance between, you know, the important things in my life and the things that I desire.
Michael: Right. Well, let me be a bit provocative here because I know Leo. He’s an old friend of Box of Crayons. He’s contributed to some of the books that we’ve written, and he is amazing, what he’s done. And he does have a wife and six kids, right? Let me be provocative and go, okay, so there’s Leo with six kids. And then it seems to me there’s an awful lot of single white dudes without kids, without partners, all of whom either wear black or grey T-shirts. Is there something about this being kind of for a certain type of person, a type of subset, like a kind of austere hipster?
Ryan: Yeah. You know, if anything, first off I would say that—so Josh Milburn and I, who, you know, run the minimalists.com, yes, we are two white dudes. And when we started this, we were two single white dudes. And I agree that—and I don’t know if this is one of the points you’re trying to make, but, you know, Josh and I for the longest time—it was just the Josh and Ryan show. But you can imagine how—there are only so many people who two dudes, who are 30-year—two 30-year-old white duded telling them to get rid of their stuff. You can imagine, there’s only so many people that that resonates with.
And, you know, that’s exactly why we made this documentary, Minimalism, a documentary about the important thing. Is because we wanted to show the different flavours of minimalism.
Michael: Love it.
Ryan: And what I’ll say is that I think there is—I think, you know, there’s obviously, like, this stereotype of a white male that people can make, but Josh and I are really going out of our way to kind of go against that stereotype, and to show people that there is a different way to live. I don’t think that minimalism appeals to only white males. In fact, if you watch our—you know, our documentary, I know you’ve seen it, I mean, I think you could agree that there’s a wide variety of male, female, married, not married, black, white …
Michael: Yeah. It’s a diverse crowd you got there, for sure.
Ryan: Yeah, there’s a very diverse crowd that we have in the documentary, and that’s really what we wanted to show, is how minimalism is applicable to anyone. Now, even you and me, being two white dudes, I know you’re from Australia and I’m from the States, but we come from different places, but, you know, Michael, it’s still applicable to both of our lives to where we could, you know, again, just live more deliberately. But the point I’m trying to make is that, you know, you’re lifestyle and the things you have in your life, someone who does many different things than I, you’re going to have a lot of different things in your life than mine. And I think that’s what minimalism really comes down to, whether you’re rich, poor. No matter what socioeconomic background you come from or what cultural background you come from, minimalism can help folks from any of a variety of places.
Michael: So, I mean, I think you’re right, particularly when you realize minimalism isn’t just about stripping down your possessions but it’s a more mindful, thoughtful way of using the resources that you have. And one of the questions I’d be curious about is going, you know, what is it—what do you think people are afraid of—why do you think people are afraid of letting go? You know, that might be afraid of letting go of stuff but, also, you know, I look at my own behaviour, I’m like, “I cram my schedule and I cram my Inbox.” And I can see part of what’s going on there but there’s got to be something that’s kind of making me stick to those patterns of behaviour that aren’t nearly as elegant as I would aspire to. So, what do you see that kind of drives people to hold onto the stuff that’s filling up their lives?
Ryan: Well, I think there are probably a multitude of reasons. Looking at my life and the things that I was afraid to let go of when I first found this thing called minimalism, I remember—so I’m just going to backtrack a little bit. So my whole minimalism journey, when I first heard about this concept, I thought, “Wow, this is a really, like, common-sense thing. If I don’t own this, you know, $200,000 condo, if I’m not buying a brand-new car every couple of years, oh yeah, I won’t have to work 60, 70, 80 hours a week to maintain this lifestyle.” So I very quickly thought, like, “Yes. Like, this is the attitude that I want to adopt.” And for me it started with a packing party, where Josh and I, we literally packed up everything in my 2,000 square foot condo, my clothes, my kitchenware, my towels, my TVs, everything, and we pretended like I was moving. So the whole idea was for me to pretend like I was moving, pack everything up, and then I would unpack things as I needed it, to see what I was really getting value out of.
And so you could imagine. Like, you know, that first night I’m unpacking some clothes for work, my sheets, some toiletries …
Michael: The lingerie. Yeah, exactly.
Ryan: Yeah, right. My lingerie. How do you know about what I do in my life, man? No. But no, no. You know, you can imagine, over the next three weeks, like, I was unpacking things less and less as time went on. So I remember, after three weeks, I was sitting and looking at 80% of my stuff that was still packed in boxes, and I remember looking at it and thinking, “Oh, wow, like, here are tens of thousands of dollars’ worth of things that I’ve brought into my life to make me happy not doing their job. And I’m going to get rid of it. I’m going to donate. I’m going to sell. I’m going to get rid of all of this stuff and I’m going to start living a different life.” And I’ll tell you, man, everything—it was pretty easy. I mean, it wasn’t super easy but, like, Josh came over to help me get rid of some of the stuff and I remember, like, we had these 50-gallon garbage bags and he started, like, sweeping these coffee mugs into (inaudible).
You know, I had, like, 20 or 25 coffee mugs, and he starts sweeping some of them into the bag and I’m, like, “Dude, what are you doing? Like, I drink a lot of coffee. You know, what if a mug breaks? I need some backup mugs.” Like, he’s holding up a mug that says, like, says something like “World’s number one grandpa” or something … He’s, like, “What is this?”
“Oh, you know, it was the 99-cents store” or “Someone gave it to me” or “My grandpa passed it” or whatever it may be. And, you know, when I thought about it, it was, like, you know, “Wait a minute. Like, I probably don’t need 25 cups. Let’s say I keep four cups. I might have some company over, we can—you know, I’ll have a cup of coffee. Worst case scenario, I can go back to the 99-cents store and buy another mug if I want to.” So, like in that instance, I think for me the fear of letting it go came down to this feeling of scarcity. Like, I just—you know, I was raised, you know, young poor white kid (inaudible) up in the suburbs, had a lot of troubles at home. And I just remember, like, not wanting to grow up with those same struggles.
So, you know, for me, like, coffee mugs is just a symbol of having an abundance and having enough—more than enough …
Michael: So I love what you’ve done with this because, you know, in the documentary, both you and Josh talk about, you know, your roots, where you came from. And you both did have a pretty tough upbringing. You know, dysfunctional families really doesn’t even scratch the surface of it. And I love that you’re making that connection (indiscernible) saying, “Look, somehow these mugs,” and it could have been anything, “but these mugs were symbolic of abundance.” (Indiscernible), “Look, I’ve got 25 cups in my cupboard. Life must be pretty good. You know, it means I’ve got people and I’ve got coffee.”
Michael: “I’ve got drinking implements. You know, I’ve got it all.”
Ryan: I could drink ten cups of coffee at once if I wanted to.
Michael: Exactly. And it strikes me that what you’re seeing is that you find abundance in a different place, beyond the coffee cup. So I guess my question would be it’s one thing to give away the coffee cup. You know, whatever that symbolizes, whatever, symbolically, your thing might be. Where do you or how do you go and find the thing that replaced it, a deeper sense of what abundance or happiness might be?
Ryan: Well, you know, I mean, if you were to look at my life at 25, 26, 27, you know, you would see someone who had an abundance of everything. Not just coffee cups but, you know, I had three—it was a three-bedroom, two-bathroom condo with two living rooms. You know, why do I need two living rooms? I don’t know. Maybe in case one burnt down and I had, like, a spare. You know, I had no idea. So, yeah, my life was filled with abundance, but there were a lot of things that I had to give up to have that life.
The first thing was my health. I’ll tell you, man, health was always, like, a priority. I would always say, “Oh, health is a priority.” But, you know what, man, I was eating fast food several times a day on average, hardly ever cooked for myself, and it was because I was busy. It was because, you know, I was climbing that corporate ladder and making my boss happy and making my customers happy and really going after it. So, you know, health was something that was a priority but I really didn’t do anything to help my health.
Relationships, my mother, she lived a half-hour away from me, and I might have seen her six, seven times a year. Holidays, family get-togethers, a birthday, you know, Mother’s Day. The important stuff. And I’ll tell you what, man, it felt okay at the time because every time I showed up to those gatherings, you know, my mom and my relatives would be, like, “Oh, well there’s our, you know, our college graduate…”
Michael: The prodigal son returns. Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah. Right. “There he is, our corporate (indiscernible). There he is.” You know, patting me on the back, “There’s—he made it. Look at him. He doesn’t have time for us because he made it.” And, like, they used to tell me that it was okay that I saw them only, you know, a handful of times a year. And I’ll tell you, when I was looking, like—just going back to the packing party, when I was looking at all those boxes and I thought about all the money and the time that I had spent acquiring that stuff and how there was this benchmark in my head of, “Hey man, if you get enough money and enough stuff, you can go out and you can finally do the things you want to do. You can spend as much time with your mom as you want. You can go on vacations, but right now I’ve got to put my nose to the grindstone. I’ve got to make sure to, you know, just ignore everything except for the work.”
And when I was looking at those boxes I thought to myself, “Like, wait a second, I don’t have to wait until I’m retired. I don’t have to wait until I have this certain magic number of things or this certain magic amount of money in my bank account for me to spend time with my friends and family.”
Michael: Okay. So we’re doing this cool little break thing we do at the Box of Crayons Great Work Podcast thing. I’ve got the three questions, and I love asking these three questions and so I’m going to put you on the spot. So, Ryan, question number one: What’s the crossroads you came to, what’s the decision you made that’s made all the difference to the way you live your life?
Ryan: Well, you know, when I was in the corporate world, you know, I had mentioned I was working 60, 70, 80 hours a week and I was pacifying myself outside of those work hours as much as I could. And I was doing that with TV, I was doing that with $400 bar (inaudible). I was using a lot of drugs. And I got to a point where I knew I had to do some really hard work to get out of that, or I could have continued down the road that I was going on. And, you know, I’m someone who has never given in to the easy road of pacifying myself. And when I heard about this thing called minimalism, I decided to use that as my (indiscernible) list to make major changes in my life.
Michael: So that’s wonderful. Second question is this: Whose work has influenced your work? And, you know, that could be a writer, it could be a thinker, it could just be a role model or somebody in your life who’s been a mentor, a coach, an influencer to you. So, whose work has influenced your work?
Ryan: Man! So many people. Let’s see. Any of the stoics. Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus. Any of the stoics. Their writings are great. Buddha. Jesus. You know, any of those guys were minimalists way before I was. I’ll tell you, recently, Henry David Thoreau. I guess more modern. Leo Babauta, of course. Joshua Becker. He does some great work. Courtney Carver(?). She does some great work. But anyone who I have been able to read that talks about living a simple life, and kind of, you know, living a happy life without having to have all the stuff and the big bank account. Certainly those have been major influences on my life.
Michael: Yeah. And third and final question is this: Here at Box of Crayons we say we help people and organizations do less good work and more great work. Great work being the work that has more impact, and the work that has more meaning. It speaks to kind of who you are in this world. So how do you see your great work at the moment?
Ryan: You know, Josh and I, we focus on one thing a year. So, like, if you go back to 2014, Josh and I went on a 100-city world tour to spread our simple living message. In 2015 it was our year of giving. We helped open an orphanage. We helped build a school in Laos. We did a lot of—just a lot of philanthropic work that year. And then this year has been—our big focus has been the documentary. And what I love about our documentary is it is a documentary that can resonate with anyone. It has many different types of minimalists in there. We interviewed, you know, economists, socioeconomic folks. Yeah, neuroscientists. We interviewed a wide variety of people to show how minimalism can really be applicable to anyone in any part of their life.
Michael: Fantastic. Do you have a sense of what 2017’s going to be or is that still emerging?
Ryan: 2017? You know, right now we have a lot of things on the horizon and we actually have a meeting, Josh and I, in our—we have one employee, his name is Sean Harding. You might him as Podcast Sean. He’s on—we have a podcast that he’s on. But yeah, we have a meeting in the next couple weeks to actually pick and talk about what our focus is going to be for 2017. I don’t have anything that we’ve nailed down yet but I will tell you that we have, of course, book ideas. We have a TV show that we’re working on with some producers. We would love to do Minimalism: A Documentary about the Important Things, Part 2.
[Talking at the same time]
… that we have on our radar but we have not nailed anything yet for 2017.
Michael: Stay tuned, everybody. All right, Ryan, let’s get back to the interview. I want to push you on this because I love this story. The metaphor I would use is there’s no point in changing the wallpaper unless you change the foundations of the house you’re living in. Otherwise you just have different wallpaper and … I can see how part of what you’re saying is that if you just throw away the mugs, you’re changing the wallpaper and something else will fill the space. But it sounds like you, you know, you’ve changed the foundations. And one of the words you used was benchmarks. “You know, this was the benchmark I had about what success was.” My curiosity would be this: What was the work you did or how did you come to find that there were benchmarks that mattered to you and, you know, how did you get there? Because that feels to me like the hard work, is getting to a place where you start seeing what matters to you, what do you want. And once you get clear on that, decisions about, “Do I keep this coffee cup or not?” become a little easier. So where did you find that shift?
Ryan: Well, you know, going back to that—I mean, the packing party was kind of like the precipice of this whole journey. I guess sitting there, and when I was going through that thought of “I don’t need to have these specific benchmarks before I can focus on the things I want to focus on. I can do these now.” And I guess, you know, I was kind of looking at what I said my priorities were. My health. My relationships. Cultivating—you know, working on the passion projects that I’d been putting off for two years. Contributing. Growing. All these things that I said were my priorities, well, really, I just gave them lip service. Really, those are things I just talked about. And what I realized was the priorities that I talk about, my actual priorities, are what I do. It’s not what I talk about; it’s what I actually do.
And so, you know, from that packing party I started to find different ways to where I could actually make my priorities my real priorities.
Michael: So I just love this. I love the hard work that goes on behind the scenes around figuring out what your priorities are so that you can then take action beyond it. I mean, that’s one of the things that—you know, you mentioned Leo Babauta at the start of the call and if you’ve read his book on zen habits, you know, the book of the—it’s not the book of the blog but’s it’s the same name. You know, one of the things he talks about in terms of building strong new habits is about making a vow. That’s the words he used. I like the kind of the sacredness of that. In the sense of kind of figuring out you’re doing this in service of what? And until you’re (indiscernible) clear on what you’re in service to, it’s very hard to shift your behaviour and change your behaviour.
And it feels to me that what you’re connecting here is this kind of, sort of, that deeper insight about what’s the vow? You know, in whose service and in what service are you making these kind of radical changes in your life? So, Ryan, let me ask you this because, you know, you went through this process of shedding but there’s also been a process of rebuilding as you and Joshua have taken on new projects and decided to do new things. How do you make the decision about what to allow back into your life? Because I can imagine kind of one of the darker sides of minimalism could be you get really good at excluding stuff but not so great at inviting the important stuff back in.
Ryan: Well, I’ll tell you, man, I every day have desires to bring things into my life. Like, I live in Montana and, man, this is, like, fly-fishing capital of the world, and I can’t tell you how many times, like, I’ll see guys on the river fly-fishing. And I’m, like, “God, I really want to, like, start fly-fishing.” But you know what, man? I mountain bike, I snowboard, I do a lot of hiking. There are a lot of hobbies I already have and I know that fly-fishing is going to bring me more stuff, first of, which, again, stuff isn’t wrong, but, you know, it would bring me stuff that I probably wouldn’t use as much as I would like to. And it would give me more pressure on well, now I’ve got (inaudible) all these things that I have to use. But, you know, the process that I go through is simply asking the question of, you know, is this going to add value to my life? Does this thing that I want to bring into my life, is it going to add value? And if you read our writings—in fact, in our documentary you’ll hear us, you know, to a fault, repeat those two words: adding value.
Michael: So let me ask. Why doesn’t fly-fishing add value? Because you get to be in the river. You get to be with nature. You get to go through that ritual. You know, there’s obviously—there are obviously men and women out there who find an enormous amount of joy from fly-fishing. I wouldn’t be one of them. For me fly-fishing is inexplicably interesting. I don’t know, I don’t get that at all. But, you know, there are other people who are, like, “I love this stuff.” So why have you decided without, as I understand it, maybe even trying it or really getting into it that this is not the thing to pursue?
Ryan: Well, for me, it wouldn’t add as much value for, you know, the guy that I see on the Clark Fork River fly-fishing every other day. You know, that gentleman who I see out there often, he is committed. He is out there and, you know, he probably doesn’t mountain bike. That might be his only hobby that he has, and I’m making some assumptions here, but, you know, for me, it wouldn’t add value because I have already so many hobbies that I love to pursue, and passions that I like to cultivate that I know that when I look at my resources, not just the money but the time, and the attention, I don’t have enough time and attention available each week to give to fly-fishing. And I think that a lot of people will make the mistake of thinking that, “Well, if I buy that fly-fishing pole and if I buy all those—you know, the different gear that goes with it, the vest and the lures, so forth and so on, well that’ll force me to go out and to get on the (indiscernible) and to fly-fish. But that’s not the case. You know, having the fly-fishing pole isn’t going to make me fish any more than—or to crave to fish any more than what I have now.
So, yeah. Of course, yes, fly-fishing for some people is going to add a tremendous amount of value. And I think—you know, I think that’s the beauty of minimalism, is there isn’t this one specific way of life. There isn’t, like, you know, “Man, I wish there was a list of a hundred items that …”
Michael: Right. “Here are your hundred items. Go out. Get those. Abandon everything else. Life is straightforward.” Yeah.
Ryan: And it’s just not like that. And that’s what I appreciate about this whole concept, is it really helps someone take an inventory of their life and figure out what adds value and what doesn’t add value.
Michael: I love it.
Ryan: And I’m kind of getting away from what we were just talking about.
Michael: Well, here’s what I took out of your answer, Ryan, which is it’s not about just what might bring me value or joy or happiness. It’s understanding the opportunity cost and understanding constraint.
Because you actually have a limited amount of capacity, not to mention money and time and all of that sort of stuff, but you have a limited amount, so what do you choose to put into that space? And if you’re, like, “You know, I want to be committed to mountain biking rather than scale back my mountain biking and take up fly-fishing,” then you get clarity on the choices you’re making. You’re not making them in the abstract. “Maybe I’d like fly-fishing.” But you’re really saying, “If I said yes to fly-fishing, what would I have to say no to?” And if you can’t think of anything, then you’re, like, “It’s no to fly-fishing.”
Ryan: No. That’s definitely—yeah, I couldn’t have said that any better myself. That’s exactly it. Because as a minimalist I have had to learn what do I need to say no to in order to live the life that I want to live. And it’s hard to say no. But I have found ways to say no to things that are very great opportunities ostensibly, and sound like something I would love to jump into but yeah, ultimately, yeah, you have to say no to a lot of things in order to say yes to others.
Michael: So, if people, Ryan, because our time here is done, if people want to say yes to you guys and want to find out more about a way of thinking about a minimalist way of life or want to find out more about the documentary or about the books that you’ve published, where would you direct them onto the web?
Ryan: As far as our books and our essays, we have hundreds of—there might be over a thousand at this point—free essays on—you can go to theminimalists.com. So that’s like theminimalists, like plural, dotcom. And then if you want to check out our documentary, you can go to minimalismfilm.com. You can see the preview there and of course, it is now on this month. It’s on iTunes and Amazon Play, or I’m sorry, Google Play and Amazon and all that stuff. So there’s plenty of ways to see the film.
Michael: Perfect. Ryan, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.
Ryan: You too. Thanks, Michael.